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Yoga Nidra with Kelly Boys
42m

Yoga Nidra with Kelly Boys

Learn the wisdom and beauty of the ancient practice of Yoga Nidra.

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Hello, and welcome to another episode of Mindfulness+. I'm your host, Thomas McConkie. Thanks so much for listening today. I'm joined in the studio with Kelly Boys, and I'm really excited to have a conversation with you. Just for the audience here, you've done a lot of interesting things and I'm not gonna name all of them, but you have a book on mindfulness called The Blind Spot Effect: How to Stop Missing What's Right in Front of You. We'll have something to say about that. You've worked with the United Nations and training staff on the ground around the world in how to apply mindfulness to their field work. Is that right? Yep. Yeah. Okay. So more to come on that one. We've both worked in prisons for many years, and I'm not sure if that will come up, but you were working the San Quentin State Prison. Right. As part of the prison yoga project. Yeah. Okay, lovely. And also I was interested, we're gonna talk about Yoga Nidra. You're trained in Yoga Nidra, in the tradition specifically of Kashmir Shaivism. Some of my students over the years have heard me kind of rant and rave about how elegantly Shaivism works with polarity or duality, so maybe we'll get to play Ooh. Yeah. on that a little bit. We can talk about that. But you've had a fascinating career and been a lot of places at a young age, and I'm just excited to have you in the studio and hear what's in your heart with practice these days. Thanks for having me here. It's really nice to be here Welcome, Kelly. Yeah. Cool. So maybe you could just give a little introduction about what got you into the path, mindfulness and yoga, and start from there. Yeah, sure. Yeah. For, let's see, so mindfulness, I got into the path because I was suffering with anxiety and I had had a very young, early marriage, age 18 to 22. Wow. And went through a really tough divorce. I was married to a pastor and embedded in a church context. Oh, wow. Yeah. This just changed the whole direction of the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And so after that, I was having a lot of anxiety and not knowing, or having any tools for how to work with my inner experience. So I've been trained around prayer and giving things to God, and at that point in my life, I felt like I wasn't quite, that wasn't working for me in the same way, because some of those ideas were crumbling inside of me. And so I needed to be able to work with my inner experience and get to know what was happening inside of me and gain more wisdom with it. And it was mindfulness that was very compelling for me, because it just gave me the chance to see that how I'm feeling or what I'm thinking isn't all of what I am in the moment, and that fusion that I had had with who I was started to get unstuck through the practices of mindfulness, and I could actually work with and get close to my experience. And so, yeah, that was what drew me to it and then kept me on the path of mindfulness. Of course. Yes. That was the beginning of a new life, it looks like. Yoga Nidra drew on all of that. Yeah. I'm so curious about so many things you said. What was it like to be in that cultural context, getting into practices that I'm guessing weren't super mainstream. I mean, that would've been a journey in and of itself. Yeah. It was actually even just going to a yoga class at that time was pretty edgy. Right. Yeah. And so, You strike me as the edgy type almost. That's right. Breaking patterns. Yeah. And yeah. And it was through, I first was going to yoga classes, and then I went to a yoga class where it was just you're in the shavasana pose where you're just lying down, and someone led this thing called Yoga Nidra. And that was a guided meditation. And I got up off of that mat going, "What just happened? I'm transformed, and I gotta know more." And you're gonna share that gift with us at the end of our conversation. Yeah, I will. Guide us in a practice. That's something to look forward to. So you had a moment there where you knew you'd felt something powerful and you were paying attention. That's right. That's right. And then what happened for me actually is I had one of those moments of transcendence or whatever you wanna call it, spiritual experiences, where yeah, I just, I suddenly, I was in my room by myself at my parents' house, kind of age 31 back at home, and I suddenly experienced the world differently than I had before. And it kind of came out of nowhere. And so I think that that also helped me further along that path. Wanting to go to retreats, wanting to kind of understand this experience of feeling very interconnected with things around me that felt so natural, but yet not something people had taught me before. So. Beautifully said. I'm curious, so you're on this path. I love one thing you said. I wanna name it just so the listeners really catch it, because I find this in my own cultural context. I know many people where I'm from, who are brought up with a beautiful, powerful Christian background and training, but they find that the kind of conventional way it's taught lacks some psychological sophistication, meaning there are deep eternal principles we could say, but it doesn't necessarily like to be a devout Christian doesn't necessarily equip me to work with my suffering or understand the relationship of my thoughts to my feelings, to my quality of embodiment. Like there's a sophistication in these practices that are starting to take root in the west, that I heard that in your story, that there was a nourishment available there that you hadn't gotten in another context. That was really interesting to me. Yeah. Absolutely. And it seemed like it, for me, it relates back to the faith context. But it wasn't embedded in the tradition that I grew up in. Yeah. No, exactly. So isn't it interesting. It can get applied back in, but it's almost a separate way of knowing yourself. And I felt the Christian upbringing was more knowing myself through relationship with God, and then this was knowing myself through seeing the ways that I'm in my own way and believing stuff that's not true and making myself suffer. And like finding more agency in a way, instead of maybe, I think when I first had the anxiety, I would just pray or hope it went away. I just wanted to get rid of it. And then the mindfulness stuff cracked that open and said, "Actually it's welcoming it and getting to know it that's gonna make all the difference." And so, yeah. Yeah, so we might come back to this and spend a lot of time here, but I just wanted to note that, that I found it really intriguing how you voiced that. And I relate to that a lot in my own experience. But another question I wanted to ask you is, so you're drawn to mindfulness, but you also have this Yoga Nidra track going on. I wonder, how early did those differentiate in your career? If you know what I'm saying. When you felt the real calling to one over the other and how, of course they always relate, and ultimately aren't two different paths if I may Yeah. be so bold, but I'm just curious how they were living in you and how they started to differentiate. Yeah. The first encounter I had with what I call mindfulness was Yoga Nidra actually. Okay. There you go. Yeah. And so that was the first, I would like to say, about decade of my practice was primarily Yoga Nidra, Kashmir Shaivism, all the work with opposites that you mentioned. So yeah. We'll have to, let's like, hang out here for a minute. Lay this out for us. So what are the first 10 years of practice like as you're getting into the path. Start anywhere you'd like. So I realized I had a body, that had a wealth of information that I suddenly had access to through practice and understanding that just simply getting quiet, but through the practice of Yoga Nidra, where you're actually guided on a journey. So I think for me, and I can say the mindfulness came later, the practice and articulation of it came later for me. But so my first understanding of meditation practices, it was really this guided practice through looking at sensations in my body. What are the emotions, opposites of emotion, what are beliefs as sensation, a contraction that I have opposites of belief? And then also awareness. How do I know that I know and how do I know that I'm aware? And I could even explore that through my felt sense. And so it was this neat thing of being able to calm my nervous system, 'cause I'm in a lying down position and I practiced every single day for at least a half hour for a good solid chunk of time. And so my nervous system was getting to know, "Oh, I'm okay," after kind of the rough time in my twenties. And then at the same time it was safe to explore the inner experience and be able to see, "Oh, I actually have in me, there's anxiety and there's also this thing called peacefulness and they both are embodied feelings." And they're on a spectrum, and the more I welcome this one, the more this one arises. It's just fascinating. So I spent a lot of time and I trained with a clinical psychologist who designed this form of Yoga Nidra called iRest, very closely with him for about a decade, and worked at the institute training teachers in that and so that was, the deep dive stuff was more my home, and then from there I went to the mindfulness space. Okay. Okay. This is good. One question I want to ask you is about this kind of quality of resetting the nervous system. Something I talk to my students about a lot, whether via the podcast or in retreat, is that in a sense, the practice is getting used to our original nature. That can be a loaded term, but we're getting used to something that's actually already here, as opposed to trying to add something on. And I wonder if you could say a little bit about what that was like for you to go through that process of resetting your baseline, your nervous system. I think you have a lot of experience and wisdom around that. I would just love to hear you talk about it a little bit. Love that question. Yeah. It was like gold for me basically, because I, in doing the practice over and over again, I began to make more and more contact with that baseline, natural state that when unperturbed and when we're resting just as we are without me, without managing my experience, or even if I'm managing, that's also welcomed. And so over time being able to do the practice regularly, letting my nervous system know I'm safe, I'm welcome as I am. I'm okay. I'm not shamed. So there's this feeling of, when I worked at the UN, my colleague, Dr. Catherine CookCottone, she says, she's a researcher out of the University of Buffalo, psychologist, and she says, "Embodiment is a human right." So it's that sense of "I can be here, and safely." And so over time my body learned and then let my mind know that the safety, the relaxation, and then what you're talking about, the natural state. How did you call it? The original? Something like that. Yeah. Basic nature, something something. Basic nature. Yeah. That when I could let that simply be there and shine through that then the mind gets quiet and those emotions are welcomed and it's just kind of a whole different way of being. Actually when I first came into very strong contact with it regularly, I thought it was boring. Totally. Because it's so different. That would be worth talking Boredom is a really important place to instruct around, I find, yeah. Okay. Been there, done that. What's next? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Check. All right. I'm happy and peaceful. All right. Where's some drama to it's like where's the thing to latch onto to worry about? and pour gasoline on. Totally. Yeah. So just in, even to get used to resting in that kind of level of peacefulness. Yeah. And so I think from there, then feeling more resourced to really look deeply at those beliefs or core ways of viewing the world that might not totally be true. Then I began to, I think, yeah, be able to inquire into that from that more safe embodied place. Yeah. Thank you. That's lovely. Maybe as kind of an experiment in contrast, you could talk about Kelly Boys prenervous system reset and post, 'cause like just sitting with you right now, I'm getting a deep flavor of like, "Oh yeah. This is how my nervous system likes to feel, too," just sitting across from you. But just for the listeners to really heighten that difference; life before, life now. I would just love to hear a little bit about that. Oh totally. I'm happy to. Life before constant panic attacks? Sorry to make you go back there for a minute. Oh no. I'm happy to. Panic attacks. Full panic attacks. Yeah, and I didn't even know they were panic attacks. I just grew up in a milieu that doesn't use that psychological languaging. I just thought, "I feel like I'm dying. That's kind of strange and makes me panic." At first it would happen on airplanes, and then it would just happen kind of everywhere. And so a mixture of being anxious, and then also trying to cover that up and just kind of peopleplease. And pretty outside my own body, I'd say. And disconnected. So touch more about that. What is outside your own body? What does that feel like? So in a way, for me, it was a little just, yeah, disconnected from any kind of, I think most forms of my own intuition and agency, but also kind of just not even aware I have a body and mind, and instead just kind of blindly, in a fused way, just moving through life. Like so close to what's happening that I lacked awareness of what was happening. I would say that's the biggest shift. That's super vivid how you're describing it. I think everybody listening knows that experience of themselves and might be wondering, "Okay, like tell me about the part where I transition out of that. I transform into something else." So as you're in this transformative process, which I'll say, my experience is neverending. Yeah. That's right. That's right. However, we do notice kind of milestones along the way where we look back and realize, "Wow, my life is really different than it was five years ago, ten years ago." So maybe again, pick up where we left off a moment ago. What's the baseline now? Oh, yeah. Well, it's different from that for sure. I have over the years, I think in the last 10 years, I probably had two or three panic attacks. So for sure, it's a welcome visitor now. It's like, "Oh, this might come back." That's a high attainment. When a panic attack is like, "Oh, you've been gone? Oh, why don't you come by more often? I missed talking." I was in the Bay Area. I was on 101 North and it was just suddenly standstill traffic, and this was probably seven years ago, eight years ago. And I went, "Oh, oh, interesting. I'm having a panic attack now." And I pulled off side of the road. There was a police officer behind me, so he pulled over. I said, "I'm not feeling very well." And he followed me to the next exit. And I just, I pulled off the exit, sat with myself, and then I was okay. And I just knew it was happening. It's like, "Okay, just welcoming the panic. Here it is again. Thought I wasn't gonna be with that again, but here it is." But I would say like the baseline now is there's a sense of capacity. Not from, "I'm this great person that's gonna welcome everything," but more just from like selftrust over time. And just that whatever's here in this moment, there's a willingness to meet. I feel that willingness to meet. And then also there's a calmness that comes with that. Doesn't mean that I'm always calm, and I can feel like a bit of a freak show a lot, in terms of things I worry about or think about. It doesn't, those things happen, but they're all held within this larger ground or space that isn't refusing who I am in that moment. And I think that's the difference. Yeah, yeah. And I wanna, I mean, the language you're using, I experience as very subtle and refined, and so I want to make sure the listeners are getting it. One example of that, a moment ago I heard you describe, really masterfully, I feel. You're having an experience, and then there's like, let's say there's some part of you, there's a someone who thinks they wanna manage the experience and have a different experience than they're having. That's one level of mindfulness, I think, recognizing like, "Oh, there's always some part of me." Some people call it the self, some people call it the ego. One of my zen teachers called it the controller. Whatever we call it, some part of us is trying to manage it. And I think there's a genuine process by which we learn to relax that need to control everything. But then I think as practice deepens and matures, tell me what you think about this, then we notice that that controller, that self, that ego, still comes up all the time to control, and I can actually let that happen too. Like that's not a problem, that there's a part of me that's still trying to manipulate experience. So actually when you used that language a moment ago, I felt my whole being like, "Ah." Like that's really quite a deep level of surrender, and seeing that I felt. Maybe you could elaborate a little bit, but it's really beautiful language. Yeah. I like the way you said that. It's almost like it takes that can come up still, but the charge is taken out of it. Even if it's kind of really believable. Yeah, and so I think that is one difference is there's kind of a lightheartedness underneath that can get to really quickly. Just seeing that, "Oh yeah. This too. This thing is natural to arise," or, "Oh, I just had that thought." But I noticed the other day I had this, yeah, I had, one of my clients was talking to me about some challenging thoughts around safety and wanting to manage, and then I started to notice my own thoughts, and I thought, "Oh, that's interesting. I have those thoughts too," but they just fly through. And sometimes they stick, and then that's the thing. Then that's the time to do the work in the practice. There go, there you go. So it's not like, 'Oh, I'm just this peaceful person that notices all my thoughts that don't bother me." They do bother me, and then there's that moment where there's the meeting again. So it's just, yeah. Yeah. I mean to tell you where I am right in the moment, I'm just enjoying this process. I feel like just hearing you speak, you're revealing a deep, not, an inner state is kind of a, it's a misnomer. It's not an inner or an outer state, but I feel your mind, your heart, your consciousness, and a quality of kindness, like willingness to just meet what's here and allow to arise what's arising. So I wanted to just slow down on the language, 'cause it's so lovely. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for saying that. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Just the reflection I have in the moment is there's a tendency to think about mindfulness like it's a practice we do when the bells ring and I like take a weekend off to go to a retreat. But something I'm just really clear about speaking to you is like, "Oh, like this is the deepest meditation." And it's the deepest meditation is unfolding itself and revealing itself moment to moment. No bells, no cushions. Like here we are, mind, heart, consciousness. So it's really a lovely transmission I'm feeling from you in your words and just wanted to accent that for the listeners. Yeah, and I think that's actually, I learned that from the people I studied with, with the Yoga Nidra and the Kashmir Shaivism, because that's kind of a more radical view and says everything's the path. And so I like that I stumbled onto that right away, and from there later could talk about mindfulness, because then I felt given a gift actually, to see that the practice was as deep as this. And then to know that certain mindfulness practices are going to be extremely useful and frame them in the terms of resilience for the UN, and that kind of thing, and it's really good work. And the foundation of it's actually completely radical, at this level that we're talking about. Yes. Let's pause here. I want to hit that, and then, of all the things we could explore, I do want to give you some space to talk about Yoga Nidra in the sense of nonsleep deep rest. I think that deserves its own space. Not that we haven't been practicing it all along anyway, but like this claim of radicality. There's a bit of a bind. I'll just speak like as one practitioner to another. The moment you talk about mindfulness, it sets up this expectation that we're doing something and training something. So if you're working at the United Nations and saying, "These are resilient skills for your field workers," that's useful and that has currency, and we can operate on that basis. But what happens when we pick up a practice that is no practice, that we never picked up and no one's doing it. And at least, and it reveals a radical freedom that was never not here. That's actually what I hear you describing right now, and I just thought I would slow us down so that. That's so great. Right. Do you wanna unpack that for me? This is a conundrum we're in. Help the listeners out with that one, Kelly? I love the way that you said that. It's an interesting one, because when I first went from the nonprofit I was working at, doing all this deep work but also working with veterans and in prisons and that kind of thing, and then shifting into Google and mindfulness and going towards UN. And I thought, "Wow, I'm going to...' I very proudly thought that it was going to the shallow end of the pool. And I thought, "Oh yeah, this other thing is really deep. And then this new thing is more surface." And it was such a good learning for me, because it is true that they are quite different. One is something to be practiced as it's known generally in our culture. Thank you. Yes, totally. But ultimately it really is the other thing, if you go all the way with it. And so I had to do that learning as I got into the mindfulness world to try to make sense of, "Okay, what's here that's really valuable?" as training, and kind of undo some of, I think the preciousness I had over the tradition that I was in, and so it let me start to be creative with bringing some of that into the articulation of mindfulness. Just sort of giving a gift as a tool and then sort of talking my way out of it in the same way you just did. By going like, "And this other stuff too." And so I don't have an answer, other than it's such an interesting thing for me to look at talking about mindfulness and practicing mindfulness from this more radical perspective, and not from this separate person who's a good mindful person, to try to help someone, which is also part of the learning process. And so, yeah, it's a step. So, and I find that right now in our culture, people have heard of mindfulness. They know what it is, and it's kind of when you start to practice it or learn a tool, it helps you encounter yourself, which then can open up other ways of being with that kind of disidentifying from the stuff you're stuck in. Right, yeah. Beautifully said. I'm taking this in and just kind of feeling into the essence of it. I mean, maybe one way I would just, in my own words, kind of reflect back. One thing I heard is that in the end, the surfaces are the depth. There's no difference anywhere we are anywhere. It's the whole thing. Whether we realize that and appreciate it or not, I think it's part of the maturation process. But I think the way it's been coming up for me in my life, when I find myself talking to students like all the time, it feels true every time I say it, like you're doing better than you think. You're doing way better than you think. Like, things are actually quite good when you take a particular view that "Oh, like we're here." Yeah, absolutely. I feel that in everything you say, I feel you saying that, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a kindness. There's some deep kindness in that and awareness there. So then you're also eliminating in yourself in particular as a teacher, but just as a practitioner too, of getting stuck at any of those places, and then it's just that play. And it's a gift to be given and it's a gift to give, to allow someone and see them right where they are and see the beauty of it. Yeah. Absolutely. With the time we have, I want to talk a little bit about Yoga Nidra, if you'll just introduce it to the audience as though they're hearing it for the first time. I think many of them might be. Okay, yeah. And go from there. Okay. Yeah, sure. So I'm teaching it right now as nonsleep deep rest, which gives you a little idea of what it might be. So it's lying down and it's guided. And when I taught it before as Yoga Nidra, people think of yoga and the yoga poses, and so it's hard to say what it is, but nidra means sleep, and so it's basically a guided meditation where you're lying down and you get walked through the same kind of thing you do in a sitting meditation, but someone's guiding you with their voice and you're in a relaxed state and you feel the sensations in your body, you work with emotions, thoughts, even sense of self. The whole thing, bring a quality of awareness to your experience. But there's something about that nonsleep deep rest, so you're not fully sleeping, but you're not totally awake. So you're in that slightly hypnagogic state, where it's easier to suggest things to yourself around exploring awareness or feeling a felt sense of safety than it not always easier, but than it can be sometimes when you're sitting, holding yourself up. There's more of a doing. And so it's a guided practice I've practiced and taught for many years. So. Mm hmm. I hear you saying that in this kind of liminal space of consciousness, there's a window of opportunity, that if we're like even just the intention to sit up and meditate, there's often there's a meditator doing the meditation, whereas like moving into this more liminal space or, in other words, inbetween space, maybe that sense of a doer and a doing softens, It does. and opens up a possibility of exploring in ways we can't. It does. Yeah. So what do you explore? What do you like to explore with your students? What do you find? So one of the things I find really powerful is to do the nervous system down regulation stuff, where breathwork and feeling a felt sense of safety. Even having a memory of somewhere that you were that you felt completely safe, you could be yourself, and then having that as a foundation to explore. And then Yoga Nidra also uses opposites, and I think that's some of the Kashmir Shaivism, some from Jung, where Just, yes Carl Jung that is, if you missed that reference. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And to be able to look at what's the somatic experience in my body of an emotion, and if I welcome that and get to know it and name it and then see the images that come with it, and then what would happen if that weren't here, what would be here and exploring the opposite. Or letting that still be there, but still asking what else is here. And the power of that, and kind of surfing back and forth between the two as somatic felt senses. Amazing. Yeah. Can I offer something here? Yeah, please. So I've been doing research in developmental psychology, particularly the stages of adulthood for the last 10 years. And one thing that's clear in ego development theory is that whatever we call an ego of personality, it organizes around opposites, which in plain speech means like, "I like this. I don't like that. I'm a happy person, not an angry person. I like to be in control. I don't like to submit to other people." Like opposites, and like, "I like this one, I don't like that one." And something I heard you say is like, when we move into that space of Yoga Nidra practice, I can actually move to maybe a larger context of a self, of an awareness that isn't battling between the opposites, creating all of that tension and struggle. It's like, "Oh, they're already both in my experience. Why fight them when I can include them in maybe a larger, freer identity?" That's how I hear that. Is that true to... That's exactly it. Yeah. Where there's a sense of wholeness then. and within this wholeness, these are the things that can be in my experience. And so do I really need to refuse and resist that when it's something that's gonna come and go. And I'm getting to know it, and then I also know this other thing that's at the other end of the spectrum called peacefulness and what that feels like in my body, which as you know, we're not wired to look for what's pleasant. And so then we get to do the practice of inviting in what's pleasant as well. And then in the Yoga Nidra practice, you feel one then other and then both simultaneously. And when you feel both simultaneously, often what can happen is that something sort of balances in your body and mind, and insight can arise or some sort of balanced view can happen. And so I have seen that in my own experience and in so many people's experiences being so helpful and healing, I think. Really healing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, 'cause then it's like if I've really explored the main emotions that we all feel, and then another person walks in the room displaying one of those emotions that I might not prefer, then yeah, I've done the practice in myself and I know we all hold everything and I can come from wholeness and see how it is to not resist and refuse them in their own experience. Yeah. I mean that we could spend the whole hour on that. Like when we reclaim something in ourselves, it spontaneously shows up in compassion for others in the world, 'cause we see ourselves in it. Yeah, absolutely. It's a big deal. And then the playing field's leveled then at that point, and I think that's a message, that I grew up with some hierarchical ways of knowing and seeing, and through the lens of power. And I really like thinking that we all have access to God, to know ourselves. And so this undoes that for me because it lets us each practice in our own way and discover for ourselves what's true and real. And then check out, "Okay, with this teaching that's here, does that resonate with me and my heart?" and if so, then great. Let me get into that. So, mm hmm. That feels like a beautiful segue into some practice, Yeah, sure. if you'd be willing. I'd love to. Whatever's in your heart right now, I'd love to just let you share it here. Great! See where we go. Am I good to sit? Shall I spread out on the floor? Oh, you'd be welcome to if you wanted. Yeah, either way. I'll start here and see where we go. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. We'll just do a few minutes. So let yourself get comfortable wherever you are and maybe allow your shoulders, even if you wanna tense them up for a minute and then allow them to drop and notice if you're holding any tension anywhere else in your belly, in your throat, neck, thighs, feet, hands. And if there are any places of tension, can you simply by acknowledging the tension, notice if it might spontaneously release or relax. Feeling your senses open. So ears to sound. Taste, smell. If your eyes are closed, sensing the shadows or light across your eyes. Feeling of air on your skin so that your body is like a receptivity to all of your senses are open. Maybe doing a body scan from the crown of your head, with an exhale all the way down to the soles of your feet. Having a felt sense of being here. If it's not already here, check and see if you can invite in a sense of wellbeing. You may have a memory come up or an image of a loved one or a pet or a memory. And then after the image comes up and you feel it, then let go of the image and then feel the felt sense of wellbeing, of safety, of ease in your body. You notice your breath coming and going, again, just being here, senses open. And as we've talked about feeling that quality of awareness, as a felt sense, there's a knowing, seeing, perceiving here. You might have the feeling of space along with it or love or a holding. So find out what that is for you. Just this feeling of being aware. Notice if your mind's trying to figure it out and that's fine, and then bring your attention back to your body, the felt sense of being here, your breath coming and going. Mind doing its thing, and being aware of your whole experience. Notice if there's any kind of resistance in you. Can that be welcome too? It's all welcome, this kind of radical meditation practice where it's all here. Not refusing even the refusal or the judgment. By way of closing, bring attention to your heart. Check and see what's present here. Is there a sense of feeling connected, of connected to yourself, connected to higher power, God, the natural state? And if so, what does that feel like in your body as a felt sense or a felt knowing? Mind can't really figure that one, so can let that be on the back burner and just placing attention at your heart, felt sense of connection, of this kind of radical welcoming here. Just for this moment. Feeling again from crown of your head, all the way down to the soles of your feet. It's like your body's almost breathing itself. There's no need to control, manage. And just take a moment to acknowledge, is there anything that would like to be seen or known by me right now and just see if anything comes to you. Is there anything that would like to be acknowledged, known, seen? And then let yourself rest here in this meditation for another few breaths and I'll ring a bell to close. Yeah. Thank you, Kelly. Yeah. Thank you. I feel after just a short time with you, we've barely scratched the surface of all of your experience, all your wisdom, but I'm really happy to come into the studio and share with the Mindfulness+ audience today. Anything you'd like to point us to, like work you're up to, things you'd like people to know about before we sign off. Oh, sure. I'm on TikTok @mindfulnesswithKellyBoys. I made it into that social media platform, and I have some free meditations on YouTube, just if you search for my name. And yeah. Yeah, that's about it. But it's been a real delight to have this conversation. Yeah. For real. For me too. Yeah. Thank you, Kelly. Hope to be in touch with you as things develop and more conversations to come. Sounds great. Okay. Thank you. You've been listening to a bonus episode, Mindfulness+. Stay tuned for season six, coming up in a few months. We'll let you know about those dates. Also many of you don't know this, but you can click on a link in the show notes and leave an audio message on our website and ask me a question, make a request for an upcoming episode. We always love to hear from listeners. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We'll be back with more soon. Thank you, Kelly Boys. Thank you. Okay. Yeah.

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